From: mjmh@bu.edu (Michael Holmes)
Newsgroups: alt.callahans
Subject: Re: ADMIN: Revamp alt.callahans?
Date: 18 Oct 1996 15:51:07 GMT
Organization: Boston University
Message-ID: <54891b$jur@news.bu.edu>
References:  <53lp5k$b5a@izzy4.izzy.net> <325E8C87.1F4F@peak.org> <53m4ha$m4k@izzy4.izzy.net> <53os33$2ro@nadine.teleport.com> <53tpef$qrc@izzy4.izzy.net>

Sanford E. Walke IV (sewiv@izzy5.izzy.net) wrote:
: Randolph Fritz (randolph@teleport.com) wrote:

: : "As for the idea of hurtful honesty--I'm concerned that some so-called
: : honesty in fact conceals a lot of anger and is simply dishonest in
: : another way--true to facts and false to emotion.  

: I don't know where you people come from, but I wish I'd quit meeting you.

"I think the point you might be missing, Sandy, is in the _how_ one
is honest, and _when_ one expresses one's honesty.  Being blunt is
often MORE than simple honesty -- it can be cruel, calculating,
unnecessary, even harmful."

: Kelly apparently felt the same way, that somehow "emotion" is more important
: than the truth.  IMO, it never is.  Tell the truth, always, no matter how 
: "hurtful" you think it may be, because lying about it *always* hurts more.

"This is definitely not true.  It may be that you haven't had the
experiences that others have had.  Or it may even be you haven't
perceived situations being made worse by overly-blunt or poorly-timed
'honesty'.  But it does happen."

"People are emotional beings -- none of us is purely objective.  Period.
Not recognizing this is failing to recognize a fundamental aspect
of human reality.  What is 'true' for one person might not always
be true for another.  Especially when you can say the same thing
in different ways."

'I don't really like that dress'
'That dress doesn't really suit my tastes'
'That dress *IS* ugly'
'That dress looks stupid on you'
'Who the hell gave you that monstrosity'

"These are all ways of saying almost exactly the same thing --
you could defend _all_ of these statements by claiming 'hey,
I was just being honest' -- but there are differences.  Important
differences.  That have to do with the emotional effects AND the
honesty.  Because, frankly, none of is the objective standard for
what is 'beautiful' in dresses, so even stating 'the dress IS ugly'
is OVERstatement -- you really should say 'I think' or 'I feel'
that the 'dress is ugly' to be _truly_ honest."

: : Some truths are
: : unpleasant, true.  My concern, however, is that some so-called
: : 'honesty' makes truths hurt far more than needed and is, in fact,
: : meanness hiding behind the mask of honesty--itself a dishonest thing."

: Examples?  That hurt more than being lied to?  None, IME.

"Other people have offered some already, and I hope the 'dress
is ugly' examples show you what I think people are trying to say,
but I have a real-life example that I think fits the bill."

"In high school I was part of the band.  During my senior year
we were in the competition circuit, and doing quite well, actually --
for the first season ever.  The band, the colorguard, the majorettes --
we'd worked hard for weeks, and were ready for a big and important
competition.  And, of course, remember that we were all high schoolers.
So there were all the melodramas and high-strung antics that you
might expect -- but we were usually able to put these past us
and _concentrate_ during performances."

"One Saturday morning we were boarding the bus for this crucial
competition, when a non-band person from my own class (call him 'B')
came over to the bus.  Now, he was a sort of student council
hanger-on, and pretty 'pious' (this was a Catholic High School),
but I'd always suspected him of being more showy than honest."

"Anyway, he _knew_ where we were headed and how important it
was to us.  He was one of the biggest 'school spirit' types,
so he usually knew what most of the school groups were doing.  And
he specifically came... to tell us, the majorettes specifically,
that a very popular junior boy had been killed in an accident the
night before."

/* pauses.  Even now, this act fills him with a kind of anger.

"Of course, everyone who knew this junior was spastic with grief.  
And 'B' tried to be 'there' for people, said he'd 'had to come, because
he knew how important this boy was' to people, especially some
of his female friends in the majorettes.  'B' even helped lead
a prayer circle for him, telling us to go out and do a good job
for the dead student."

"And of course we sucked royally that day, people numb with
shock or grief or still crying even as we hit the field
a few hours later."

/* shakes his head.  "I've always wondered *why* 'B' did this.
Why he _had_ to tell us _before_ the competition -- why couldn't he
have waited until _after_?  It's not as if any of us could have
_done_ anything -- gone to the family, or a wake, or whatever.
It's not as if knowing at 10am on Saturday would have made ANY
difference to learning the news at 5pm on Saturday.  He basically
wrecked our concentration for the day -- and for no good reason."

"I _think_ that he wanted to make sure that he was the one who
told us.  I think he saw a chance to 'shine' in his role as
'spiritual leader', a chance to 'use' this tragedy to get some
attention."

"But... he _was_ honest.  He was on school grounds anyways,
and if people were interacting with him, asking him 'what's
up' -- he could have said 'not much' or 'I'll tell you later' --
but instead he WAS perfectly, 100% honest."

"He met your standard, Sandy."

"And I think it was a _terrible_ choice, with _worse_ results
than if he'd delayed, or even told a white lie (if asked), until
a better time."

--
/* -> Mike Holmes, Happiness Patrol // Happiness Will Prevail! \\
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"Few things are needful to make the wise man happy, but nothing
satisfies the fool; and this is the reason why so many of mankind
are miserable." -- Duc Francois de La Rochefoucauld